Sunday, February 08, 2009

More like a Copperhead to me

Been hearing a lot of stuff comparing the current president to the 16th president of these United States of America, Abraham Lincoln. So given this is the 200th anniversary of the birth of the 16th president, I would like to exercise the practice of wasting brain cells via self induced rumination.

Now the way I see it, outside of his two short terms in the Illinois senate and being from Illinois politically, and the flamboyantly elevated prose, and don’t forget taking his oath on the same bible Lincoln did, and the mole on the side of his nose, I don’t see it. In fact to me he is more reminiscent of a peace democrat – you know the folks who ran against Lincoln. For Obama after his election, at home and around the globe was lauded and given the accolades of greatness before he even took office. This is unlike Lincoln, who was considered vile, crude and described as “the most despicable tyrant of Modern times “by a major London news paper.

Another reason I say Obama is more like the peace democrats, or as they were called the, Copperheads, is based on there stance of an unpopular war at the time – the civil war. The name Copperheads, from what I recall historically, came from the media who compared the peace democrat’s actions as equal to the venomous snake. Just as the current conundrum in Iraq, as well as prior in Vietnam, the Civil War threatened to divide America based on an either or podium. Just as then, today, an American defeat, just like the implications of the defeat of Union forces were not a stern point for consideration. The Copperheads were basically the opponents of Lincoln.

Thus the strong similarities and unique differences that are prone for me to suggest that Obama is more of the latter than he is akin to Lincoln. Like the Copperheads, Obama has demanded an immediate cessation of hostilities in Iraq and vilified Bush for his position otherwise. And Just like George McClellan, the Democratic nominee in 1864, their main weapon was to attack Lincoln’s intelligence. I guess in this since, Obama would be a neo – Copperhead (LOL). Even the Attorney General of Lincoln’s time said that what the nation required was "a competent leader," just as Obama positioned. I could even say that the leadership of the current democratic party, just as the most popular of the Copperheads back in the day, Democratic Congressman Clement L. Vallandigham, are similar, since like Pelosi, Vallandigham introduced a bill in Congress to imprison the President in 1862. Even the present Vice President, Joe Biden sounds like George H. Pendleton of Ohio, the Copperhead Vice-Presidential candidate in 1864, who said that the American public had “been deliberately deceived into” war.

Just like the Copperheads with respect to the civil war, Obama has not opined or articulated any plan for successful getting out the Iraq war, let alone removing all US troops from Iraq. The Copperheads worked against what they saw as Lincoln's war just as Obama contention that the Iraq war was Bush’s war.

All I am saying is that I guess some of the folks are presidential scholars but the majority of them aint. I don’t see in comparison to the two, like I said above, outside of the flamboyantly elevated prose, and don’t forget taking his oath on the same bible Lincoln did, and the mole on the side of his nose. So you tell me, why do folks say or compare him to Lincoln, since clearly back in Lincoln’s time, he would have been a slave, or if free, a copperhead or peace democrat.

44 comments:

Sincere said...

every time I stop through I learn something! Now I see the comparison in a totally different light. Thanks homey!!!

Monroe Anderson said...

Torrance: You're a little to back and forth on this one. You didn't convince me that Obama isn't Lincoln-like.

rainywalker said...

RDB,
Some people talk to hear their heads roar, for rating, following someone elses lead or whatever. It is of slight interest to the rainy but its not going to lead me on some conspiracy jag. Your right they are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
rainy

Torrance Stephens - All-Mi-T said...

Blogger Sincere
thanks and good look folk

Monroe Anderson
like i asked u tell me how he is more like licoln, and less of a copperhead

rainywalker
i feel ya we on the same page

ms. bliss honeycomb said...

you said it yourself: most ppl don't know history beyond the basics they were taught years ago. i certainly didn't know anything about copperheads or peace democrats (not really into political science/history).

but i always thought the lincoln comparisons were basically feel-good hokey media crap, to a degree.

Untouched Jewel said...

I will say this: LINCOLN IS LINCOLN, AND OBAMA IS OBAMA. People can come out of the woodwork and make six million comparisons of the two. But at the end of the day, they are still two different people. Lincoln ran his presidency the way he did, and now Obama is running his the way he wants to. Obama still has 4-8 years to COMPLETE (notice the emphasis there) his presidency in order for it to be compared to anybody. None of us can rush to put him up in the ranks with Abraham Lincoln just yet, or any president for that matter. Wait 4-8 years from now, and maybe then we can see what kind of job he does.

clnmike said...

So is Bush supposed to be Lincoln?

I think the war issue sabatoges your own post.

While both wars may have have been unpopular and drained the public financially and mentally the circumstances to how we got there are very different.

The South's play against the union was economic based on slavery, and the move by the union at the time to prevent expansion in the new territories was percieved by the south rightly so as the first steps in the abolishment of slavery which of course was an attack against state rights and the emphasis of free labor over slave labor.

The very soul of the nation was at stake.

The Iraq war hardly compares, this was a that I think we can safely say was started under false pretense and has destabalized an entire region with a propped up goverment that has shown an inability no scratch that unwillingness to properly support it's self and keep peace.

There is no pretty way out of that.

Obama doesnt have to get us out clean, he just has to get us out.

But regardless the comparisons to Lincoln were over blown, but he damn sure aint a copperhead.

Amber-Alert said...

u left out that they are/were both biracial...

MsPuddin said...

for the record I have the same birthday as Lincoln!!

Anyway, Obama and Lincoln should not be compared. I think a lot of people have a misconception of Lincoln, who he was and what he believed. Their goals and ideas are separate. Period. And why are people even taking the time to disect the two, it seems weird to me.

Tera said...

This was a fantastic read Torrance, and you make a helluva good point here! A lot of people don't do the necessary homework before they make statements like that, and you know the media jumps all over that sort of stuff to suck people in...which sadly, most of them are sucked right on in!

Thanks for yet another History lesson Good Doctor :)

msladydeborah said...

Great analysis T!

Although you missed a point. Linclon was supposedly bi-racial as well. At least this is the way I understand it based on the information about America's Six Black Presidents. His opponents called him Abraham Afrakanus behind his back.

Curious said...

Not to take away from you post or analysis which was thoughtful and insightful, I think that if people are going to compare Obama to previous presidents then Lincoln shouldn't be the one.

With the current environment as it is, and Obama's penchant for some good old fashioned Keynsian style 1930's economic big government spending with no real strategic plan behind it, I would think that a comparison to FDR would be more in order. And if we start fighting Jerry and the Japs to get out of this mess, and we may do at least trade wise, then I know that comparison would be made.

Oh and Lincoln was bi-racial? Does that come under the same heading as JFK still being kept alive by machines in the White House basement?

Lovebabz said...

As You know, I am inclined to wait for the 1st 100 days to see how things will go. However what gives me pause is the repeated references to Kenysian economic blueprint. I am leaning a bit toward Curious on this.

I am not against the comparisons...that will be a given, not just for President Obama but any and all sitting Presidents. I am however interested in looking at real comparisons. You do a great job of illuminating possible truths and getting at the real heart of the matter.

HHmm looking forward to a lively discussion on Thursday 11:00pm Raw Dawg Buffalo Radio... http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Raw-Dawg-Buffalo-

nicki nicki tembo said...

Just goes to show how some things (or rather people) never change. Namely pervasive ignorance among the populace. Many accept and continue to purport that Lincoln desired to free slaves when evidence suggest the contrary. Today many view Obama as being aligned with the common man when a great deal of evidence suggest he is not.

So when an idea is put before us most don't have anything to juxtapose it with because they haven't exposed themselves, read or researched making it possible then to take on someone else's view as our own.

glad to see you back from the fluff

Torrance Stephens - All-Mi-T said...

ms. bliss honeycomb
i think u may be right

Untouched Jewel
well said

clnmike
nope not saying bush was like Lincoln, maybe gumby (lol). But was using his presidency as an example of the manner in which they were based on the war. True the union was diff. thats what i said maybe a neo xcopperhead. great point folk.

Amber-Alert
true


MsPuddin
happy bday before hand and u are right.

Tera ]
anytime foolk and glad u back blogging

msladydeborah
didnt know they called him that - thanks for the history.


Curious


i agree completely 1] FDR 2] JFK

Lovebabz
i justv think FDR would be a closer comparison policy wise and based on important event of time -econonmy

nicki nicki tembo
yep where would we have been with our frd douglas - slaves

Terry said...

Well where do I start?

First off, Abraham Lincoln was not bi-racial. His mother, Nancy Hawks was born to a farmer and his wife in West Virginia. Both were as white as they come. His father Thomas Lincoln was a carpenter from Kentucky. There is no indication that either of Thomas’ parents was anything but white.

By the way, Thomas’ father was killed by Native Americans but he was quick to make sure his son Abraham carried no ill will against them. However if you look at Lincoln’s policies towards Native Americans, he certainly wasn’t always on their side.

Both Lincoln’s parents were very anti-slavery. This of course is where he got his convictions about the institution in America. Although Lincoln used the institute of slavery as a barging chip for two years during the Civil War in hopes of bringing the South back into the Union, he knew that it was just a matter of time before slavery would end. Economically, it was beginning to fail.

As to the comparison, well, as I see it President Obama and President Lincoln have three things in common. They are both politicians from Illinois, they both used the same Bible to become President and they both married very refined women. Other than that, can’t see it. As you pointed out “T”, even their politics were very different.

If you really want to compare President Obama to any President, I would suggest Jimmy Carter. They both took office with many of the same problems hanging over their heads. A failing economy, trouble in the Middle East, a crashing global environment , an energy crisis, a lack of respect throughout the world and a deregulated government that has run amok. There are some amazing similarities.

By the way, as some of you might remember, when it was all said and done, Carter only served one term.

Dr. Wright said...

People are still looking for a savior, someone to do for them what they wont do for self.

Obama is not that.
I'll glad he is president

http://wrightplacetv.com/sce-bidding-opportunity/

Nikki Wadley said...

Although you lost me on the whole comparison thing, I did get a little history lesson.

urbanknitrix said...

Hi,

Like your blog.

I think people compare him to Lincoln, because he compares himself to Lincoln. I think he wants his cabinet to be similar to Lincoln, meaning, having the "enemy" other party, in his cabinet, not just Democrats.

Can't wait to read your other posts.

Anonymous said...

Amen to Untouched Jewel!Give the man 4 years to decide whether he is worthy to be compared to other presidents. Are you going to dis Obama for the whole 4 years he is in office or give him a chance to prove himself?

Anonymous said...

There are plenty of bi-racial people who have white and black features, but everyone can see that Lincoln was half black. Just because his family looked white, doesn't mean they wasn't passing for white. Have you ever heard of passing?

Tha BossMack TopSoil said...

One freed Niggas and One IS a Nigga, AND both were/are in them crosshairs.

I feel like he's similar to Lincoln cause they are both disrupting shit.

Terry said...

Anonymous,

Half Black? No. The best one might hope for is 1/4th. The rest of his history is too well documented.

There have been more than enough debates about Abraham Lincoln’s lineage. Historians have been arguing it for years.

The only person in his past that has become controversial is his maternal Grandmother on his Mother’s side. It is said that Lincoln’s mother may have very well been born out of wedlock. This created the rumors we now know today. But even if that was true, the controversy arrives from the fact that the woman some argue as Lincoln’s Grandmother was a Native-American. However, in recent years most historians do belief that a woman named Nancy Shipley of Maine was in fact Abraham Lincoln’s Grandmother. Her history is documented as Anglo.

But Like many things from those days, documentation is often scarce or incomplete. It’s hard to say with 100% accuracy about anyone’s past. That makes it hard to proof or disproof facts one way or the other. Therefore, people will use the information as they may. As a long time student of the studies of Abraham Lincoln, I will say that fall on the side that there is no substantial proof of any kind that any of his ancestors were African-American. Frankly, I think that it would be cool if that were the case. But I am hard pressed to find evidence to support it.

In the end however what difference would it make? He was who he was and did what he did. He will still be considered one of the greatest statesmen and leaders in the history of our country. That is not likely to change over time. We can only hope that Barack Obama does have some of those characteristics, and he too will be great.

By the way, side note; Abraham Lincoln has had more books written about him than any other person in world history - including Jesus.

Amber-Alert said...

@anonymous thank u anyone can look at him and tell. lincolns mother was from ethiopia. and he is not the only past president who was part black.

Terry said...

Amber,

Not to be disagreeable, but Nancy Hanks, (Abraham Lincoln’s Mother), was born on Feb. 5, 1784 in Hampshire County in what is now West Virginia. Her Father was Joseph Hanks was born in Richmond County, Virginia. Nancy’s mother the aforementioned Nancy Shipley was from Maine.

I’m not sure how that makes her Ethiopian.

Garth Sullivan said...

ah loves the fact that you brought up the copperheads, but, i feel compelled to make the case for the comparison... at least in some sense.

first of all, lincoln himself was a bit of a copperhead. he was perfectly willing to compromise with the south on the issue of slavery in order to preserve the union. and, in a bit of historical trivia, he had to quell certain parties who were interested in embarking on more land acquistion against Mexico and Central America. Lincoln wisely focussed on domestic problems.

beyond the oratorical skills, they both exhibit a certain pragmatism and willingness to tackle difficult subjects head on. neither one talks down to their audience, refreshing in this day and age, both are from illinois, both from modest upbringings, both successful attorneys and both taking the reins of leadership during times of MAJOR crisis.

both tall and thin.

and there it breaks down.

ah've got high hopes for obama, i'd love it if we had another lincoln on our hands in terms of temperment and judgment.

OG, The Original Glamazon said...

I think some of that comes from Obama's love of Lincoln and the fact that Team of Rivals gave him a lot of thought on a successful way to run a country that is as divided politically as the country was then.

I also think the IL connection helps as well. I hadn't even thought about the mole.

I think most historians think because he is building a cabinet based on how Lincoln built his and he finds great insight to our country from studying our past. I think Obama has stated Lincoln is one of his role models and then the media and people who don't know a lot about history or Lincoln have taken that to say he is one of the greats.

I mean to be honest Lincoln in some place ( the south) doesn't get a lot of elevation and some would take the comparison to him as a negative (hello sore losing confederate states that are still red).

Oh yeah and the other reason, many historians to be of mixed lineage as well like our President.

I've also heard some comparisons to FDR or the possibility he will be our times FDR if he can manage to get the economy back on track.

As with the Lincoln comparison I think only time will tell. I personally think President Obama will be just that. President Obama.

Kinda like I beleive that LeBron will be the FIRST LeBron as opposed to the next Jordan!

Take care now, I'm so hate I couldn't come up with one question for you. I did enjoy your answers.

-OG

CordieB said...

I think the President compared himself to Lincoln, more so than anyone with a strong knowledge of history. And, I think he compared himself to what the American people have through the years portrayed Lincoln as; not how Lincoln truely was. Very much truth here. . . we must stop believing the hype!

Blessings as always. . .

KELSO'S NUTS said...

Torrance:

Folks reading this really have to go back to the origins of the Civil War to get your point here. There were no angels.

Obama himself is a politician non-pareil although I agree that the Lincoln analogy doesn't hold up. It was clever take the shoddy scholarship of Doris Kearns Goodwin, a paint-by-numbers historian to begin with, and then boil that down even further to this "concept" of the Unifier who had this cabinet of opponents deal.

Horseshit. Of all of the people even on the scene at the time who outside of Philadelphia, New York, Hartford, and Boston were even AGAINST slavery in principle? We know the CSA wasn't. We know the Copperheads weren't. And if everyone is honest with himself or herself, he or she will remember the words of Lincoln during "Bleeding Kansas." They'll go back to the origins of the Civil War which in the Disneyland version, has Abraham Lincoln as the Liberator which he may have well been as Commander-In-Chief of the Union Army, but the conflict was brought to him and had its roots in tariff policy and the unfair market advantage slave-states had both in the trillions of 2009 dollars worth of free labor and not having to absorb a massive wave of European immigrants.

No heroes here. Tilden and later Cleveland were about the only household names who actually DISAPPROVED of slavery. And you can bet your ass that if the people of Illinois had wanted slavery and many, many,many downstate wanted it badly, Lincoln as a US Representative in the House would have been behind it all the way.

Lincoln was indifferent on the slavery question but needed to get some economic fairness between South and North. The Copperheads you've described well. There was no secret what Jefferson Davis thought about the issue.

In a sense, Obama's many, many retrograde Cabinet and advisory staff as well as his selection of Biden for VP and Clinton for State, were just like Lincoln and Johnson's alliance. Johnson did a bit of a chameleon job on himself to make himself palatable to Lincoln.

But even though Lincoln was not anti-slavery, per se, he was not ONLY about bringing racists into the fold and doing a "message." He had strong views on many issues, the economic inequalities of the states and its possible resolution without the destruction of the union being first and foremost.

Had Jefferson Davis and the part of the then splintering Democratic Party taken some kind of cotton, tobacco, corn, wheat and sugar export duty, plus a labor tax on that stuff sold domestically in non-slave states, the South could probably have had legal slavery at least until Grover Cleveland's presidency. Quite probably, Cleveland would have been faced with the Davis-Lincoln tax deal still not easing the North's burden and having more of a moral sensibility on the subject of slavery, he'd have been more ready to fight the South on that issue alone with no fig leaves. [Of course, had Tilden not had the election stolen from him, his somewhat-abolitionist bent would have been a factor in his willingness to fight it.]

I love that you wrote about the Copperheads because you see how complicated it gets when you start to dig into it a little deeper than Doris Kearns Goodwin and the Obama campaign team do.

Yes, without doubt, full stop, and ipso fact, Samuel Tilden and Grover Cleveland were MORALLY OPPOSED to slavery and Abraham Lincoln was not.

So, I guess there's so little knowledge about the political economy of the time that these legends build up and that's why it's easy for Obama to choose this symbolic model, even though when you pull up the rocks, there's nothing pretty there.

So, yes, on Slavery-Like questions of today, Hurricane Katrina, being a good example, I'd have to put Obama pretty much as a Copperhead, far to the right of Tilden, and somewhat to the right of Lincoln, though left of Jefferson Davis.

The problem I have with the analogy to the Copperheads is that that they seem a better fit with Pat Buchanan, Mike Huckabee, and perhaps William Jennings Bryan, as anti-war White Populists than they do with Obama. I can't blame Obama for not wanting to be like Buchanan, Huckabee or WJB because with White Populism you have to tolerate a hell of a lot of of Theocracy and racism to get to "helping people" and "being a republic" part!

The problem, as always, with Obama is that you never get a great read on what his views are.

He was anti-war when he was representing an anti-war district in the Illinois State Senate.

He was pro-war as the Illinois Junior US Senator.

He was anti-war against Hillary Clinton heads-up.

He was moderate-leaning hawkish against McCain.

He now appears to be strongly hawkish on the allocation, the fighting and the shopping for a new war, which he off-sets with somewhat more diplomatic language than the country has gotten used to with Bush.

In other words, Obama's kind of like a reverse-Reagan right now. Reagan's words were terrible. His actions were mostly peaceable at least as regards the two trouble sp: the Cold War and Middle East.

So far, Obama's words are about diplomacy. His policy and budget priorities are about escalation of war.

That's right now. If there were a significant American peace movement, Obama would certainly be supporting it. He just wouldn't be leading it.

KELSO'S NUTS said...

Nicki Nicki Tembo: I didn't steal your ideas, I promise! But I'm not surprised to see that we were on the same track on this as we usually are.

Most of the time, I write my comment here without reading the others so I don't get biased one way or the other.

If someone can prove to me that Abraham Lincoln was as opposed to slavery as John Brown was, never mind Nat Turner, Harriet Tubman or the great Fredrick Douglass, I'd love to see it.

As I said, I think either a President Tilden (had Hayes not pulled a George W Bush) or President Cleveland would have gotten the same results as Lincoln.

No US Civil War of any kind is happening without Turner, Brown, Douglass or Tubman.

amynicola_ox said...

i totally agree with you here on that obama and lincoln are different. hope you had a good weekend!

KELSO'S NUTS said...

@ CURIOUS: The FDR analogy is interesting and it's time to smash a very similar myth about FDR: he wanted to save the Jews, Communists, intellectuals, gays, artists and believers of self-government in Europe from the ravages of Hitler and Mussolini.

Manure. Least of all when it came to the Jews. The Roosevelts were blue-bloods who were disgusted by Jews -- except of course when FDR needed campaign money from Kimmel, Zwilling, Strauss or Loeb or advice from Henry Morganthau or Bernard Baruch. Then he was still disgusted by people he deemed sub-human but with a surprising intelligence that couldn't be accounted for.

When the greatness of FDR is told, like with Lincoln, certain events are omitted such as the "Voyage Of The Damned." Just before or just after (I'm not sure which) the passage of Hitler's "Enabling Laws," which gave him sovereignty over the physical property and person of every Jew in Germany, a group of 1000 or so were able to sneak into Holland and rent a small oceanliner which they sailed to the Florida Keys.

Because of the depression and the more violent violations of the Volstead Act (prohibition) by members of the Ashkenaz tribe of European Jews, there were very strict immigration restrictions on Jews and the boat sat docked at the Keys for months, with no one allowed to disembark, as the case made its way to court. They were denied asylum because the government argued that Hilter was still considered a good bulwark against Soviet Communism and something of an ally and no Jew should even "want" asylum from his government. They were returned not to Holland but Germany where they were all killed.

There's a profile in I don't what but it sure wasn't philo-Semitism. When he got into WWII, it was in response to a Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor although the majority of forces went to the Western front. Roosevelt had all sorts of very sound geo-political reasons for wanting to win the Western front but saving Jewish lives was not one of them. 6 million, half the world's Jewish population died shot and dissolved in lime pits or burnt in the ovens and disappeared into the sky before the saintly FDR could be bothered.

As with Lincoln, I think comparing Obama to FDR does Obama a disservice. Obama has shown some pretty cold-blooded tendencies but I think an ethnic cleansing on that scale might have prompted Obama into action as Milosevic and Karadzic's work prompted Clinton into action without anything of worth to be won.

I see Obama as an amalgam really of a few of the modern presidents: JFK, Nixon, Carter, Reagan and Clinton.

For better or worse, I don't think that any of those 5 with the possible exception of Reagan were as indifferent to man's inhumanity to man as Lincoln and FDR were.

Bougie Applebum said...

i'm just watching and waiting. thanks for the post.

Kofi said...

Haven't you heard? Obama's supposed to be Lincoln's second coming -- Lincoln reincarnate! The whistle-stop train tour, the Lincoln Bible at the inauguration, the speech at Ford's Theater... Don't you see? It's all part of the universe's master plan...

And, oh yeah, this is a joke. Don't get any ideas.

ThatchickNik said...

Well Raw Dizzle, the post along with the subsequent comments are very interesting to say the least. Its actually refreshing to see everyone's point of views and gain some knowledge at the same time.Thanks for the education, as always.
Questions: You said,

"Another reason I say Obama is more like the peace democrats, or as they were called the, Copperheads, is based on their stance of an unpopular war at the time – the civil war."

What was their stance exactly?

You said,

"The name Copperheads, from what I recall historically, came from the media who compared the peace democrat’s actions as equal to the venomous snake."

What actions were the media referring to?

look said...

情趣用品, 情趣, 按摩棒, 跳蛋, 充氣娃娃, 情境坊歡愉用品, 情趣用品, 情人節禮物, 情惑用品性易購, A片, 視訊聊天室, 視訊, 視訊交友網, 免費視訊聊天, 情趣用品, 情趣用品, 情趣, 情趣用品, 台北情趣用品, 情人節禮物, 情趣用品, 情趣用品, 情趣, 情境坊歡愉用品, 情人視訊網, 成人用品, 免費A片, 情色文學, 免費A片, A片, 免費視訊聊天, 威而柔, 情惑用品性易購, 色情遊戲, 情惑用品性易購, 辣妹視訊, A片, 徵信社, 情趣用品, 情趣, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 情趣用品, 情趣用品, 免費a片, a片, 免費av, 色情影片, 免費a片, a片, 免費av, 色情影片, 情色, 情色網, 色情網站, 色情, 成人網, 成人圖片, 成人影片, 18成人, 情趣風情, 中部人情趣網, 台北情趣用品, 情人節禮物, 成人情趣用品, 一夜情趣用品情趣, 情境坊歡愉用品, 情人視訊網, 美姬成人用品, 情人花束, 按摩棒, 情人歡愉用品, 情趣用品, 性感睡衣, 免費視訊聊天, 視訊交友網, 美姬圖影, 紅煙論壇, 交友聊天室, 海角七號, 寄情築園小遊戲, aio交友愛情館, 美女視訊, 色情A片, 視訊交友網, 情境坊歡愉用品, 情趣, 情趣, 貸款, 免費視訊聊天室, 美女視訊, 成人, 免費A片, 免費A片, a片, 情色貼圖, 成人網站, 情色電影, 情趣用品, AV女優, 情色交友, A片下載, 美女視訊, A片下載, 視訊交友網, 自慰套, 情色文學, 一葉情貼圖片區, 視訊交友網, 視訊, 情趣用品,

look said...

情趣用品, 情趣, 按摩棒, 跳蛋, 充氣娃娃, 情境坊歡愉用品, 情趣用品, 情人節禮物, 情惑用品性易購, A片, 視訊聊天室, 視訊, 視訊交友網, 免費視訊聊天, 情趣用品, 情趣用品, 情趣, 情趣用品, 台北情趣用品, 情人節禮物, 情趣用品, 情趣用品, 情趣, 情境坊歡愉用品, 情人視訊網, 成人用品, 免費A片, 情色文學, 免費A片, A片, 免費視訊聊天, 威而柔, 情惑用品性易購, 色情遊戲, 情惑用品性易購, 辣妹視訊, A片, 徵信社, 情趣用品, 情趣, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 情趣用品, 情趣用品, 免費a片, a片, 免費av, 色情影片, 免費a片, a片, 免費av, 色情影片, 情色, 情色網, 色情網站, 色情, 成人網, 成人圖片, 成人影片, 18成人, 情趣風情, 中部人情趣網, 台北情趣用品, 情人節禮物, 成人情趣用品, 一夜情趣用品情趣, 情境坊歡愉用品, 情人視訊網, 美姬成人用品, 情人花束, 按摩棒, 情人歡愉用品, 情趣用品, 性感睡衣, 免費視訊聊天, 視訊交友網, 美姬圖影, 紅煙論壇, 交友聊天室, 海角七號, 寄情築園小遊戲, aio交友愛情館, 美女視訊, 色情A片, 視訊交友網, 情境坊歡愉用品, 情趣, 情趣, 貸款, 免費視訊聊天室, 美女視訊, 成人, 免費A片, 免費A片, a片, 情色貼圖, 成人網站, 情色電影, 情趣用品, AV女優, 情色交友, A片下載, 美女視訊, A片下載, 視訊交友網, 自慰套, 情色文學, 一葉情貼圖片區, 視訊交友網, 視訊, 情趣用品,

youyou said...

百家乐 轮盘 21点 德州扑克 百家乐系统 真人娱乐场 百家乐足球德州扑克 电子游戏 英格兰超级联赛 德国甲组联赛 意大利甲组联赛西班牙甲组联赛法国甲组联赛欧冠杯 英超 足球比分 足球彩票 体育彩票 即时比分 免費a片 a片 免費av 色情影片 情色 情色網 色情網站 色情 成人網成人圖片成人影片 18成人 av av女優avav女優 情慾 走光 做愛 sex H漫 情色 情趣用品 情色 a片 a片 成人網站 成人影片 情趣用品 情趣用品アダルトアダルト アダルトサイト アダルトサイト 情趣用品

Anonymous said...

[p]These European crystal beads look gorgeous and noble, and send out the glamour of [url=http://www.llinksoflondon.co.uk]links of london charms[/url] stylish and elegant . Pandora style beads, also called as European beads, are handmade with various shapes, sizes, colors and designs . Many women are a big fan of Pandora jewelry, and your girlfriend or wife is one of them in all probability . maintain [url=http://www.thomassabojewellerysuk.co.uk]cheap thomas sabo jewellery[/url] the ordering of diamond jewelry with each and every reasonable negotiation . The step is very simple, [url=http://www.llinksoflondon.co.uk]links of london[/url] just string all the beads on the bracelet at any order you like . sabo can also be employed delightfully to mildew them into numerous extraordinary creations The charms are generally threaded so nicely for your central wire that there is no chance through the bracelet getting fastened into your [url=http://www.thomassabojewellerysuk.co.uk]thomas sabo jewellery uk
[/url] outfits . Find out if the retailer [url=http://www.thomassabojewellerysuk.co.uk]thomas sabo jewellery sale[/url] is an authorized Pandora retailer . In this entire [url=http://www.llinksoflondon.co.uk]links of london charms wholesale
[/url] world you won? T get that various the hallmark seeing that Pandora jewellery . Crazy headwears and other fantastic designs all contribute a great deal to the exciting thomas sabo bracelets uk mix & match innovation fashion this spring

In the shopping hub of Europe Thomas Sabo will always find a small space to display its silver products and this is the Thomas Sabo style attracting you in low key.[/p][p]At this time pandora charms online , a lot of on the web vendors offer you this sort of product Pandora jewellery andoptions Michigan men and women can be the leading piece of your entire human body . Love life, vibrant, so sensual, there are endless enthusiasm Features for brands to establish a distinctive route . With a Thomas Sabo Armband Necklace around your neck, you could build a special team together with Thomas Sabo charms sale after which it the idea basically option . So the jewelry materials you need for this idea is silver [url=http://www.thomassabojewellerysuk.co.uk]thomas sabo jewellery[/url] Pandora style necklace with lobster clasp (about 510mm long, 15mm wide), 10pcs black Pandora glass beads (about 14mm wide, 9mm thick, hole: 5mm), several Pandora style rhinestone beads and alloy beads (about 11-15mm wide, 3-4mm thick, hole 7-8mm), Pandora style bracelet with lobster clasp (about 180mm long, 15mm wide) and 2 silver extended chain . thomas sabo jewellery tend to be well-liked amongst individuals, each man as well as woman . Many are then simply threaded into ones own legendary enchantment rings . Of course, there are some cheap bracelets are versatile for each occasion . It is also the name of a unique jewelry.[/p]

Anonymous said...

[p]Jake enjoys his new system and relishes not just legs nevertheless the sheer agility of his Avatar . This range is craved on the ring and it has set on it is within lovely spherical [url=http://www.tiffanysoutlet.co.uk]tiffany jewelry uk[/url] diamonds . Galatea styles in Birmingham, Goodman?s jewelers in Madison, Blue Dolphin Gold in Clarksburg, Chamade Jewelers in San Antonio, and Alson Jewelers in Woodmere (Ohio) are standard favorites . Tiffany jewelry is in everyone’s heart [url=http://www.tiffanysoutlet.co.uk]tiffany jewelry[/url] and there is tiffany jewelry for everyone . Tiffany also [url=http://www.tiffanysoutlet.co.uk]cheap tiffany jewelry[/url] designed copper, silver, and niello pitchers acquired by the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, many of which are currently in museum collections worldwide . it could be an product brought by all and sundry most stores retain a commodity using [url=http://www.tiffanysoutlet.co.uk]tiffany rings uk
[/url] the most latest styles of different costs so concerning suit in one's pocket . Today, Tiffany has grown to be the [url=http://www.tiffanysoutlet.co.uk]tiffany rings[/url] world's top jewelry company . I will not necessarily yet learn for sure if Tanzanite Jewelry is usually to be beautiful expenditure of money to the foreseeable future, because Tiffany & Corp hints, yet one clear idea for sure will be right now, its glimmer among the truly most effective and quite a few beautiful connected with important gem stones that you can purchase to get nowadays.[/p]

oakleyses said...

coach outlet, michael kors outlet online sale, nike air max, tiffany jewelry, michael kors outlet store, michael kors handbags, christian louboutin shoes, tory burch outlet online, prada handbags, kate spade outlet online, michael kors outlet, oakley sunglasses, louis vuitton outlet, christian louboutin outlet, christian louboutin, nike air max, gucci handbags, louis vuitton handbags, michael kors outlet online, prada outlet, jordan shoes, burberry outlet online, coach outlet, ray ban sunglasses, true religion outlet, michael kors outlet online, chanel handbags, louis vuitton outlet online, red bottom shoes, louis vuitton, oakley vault, ray ban outlet, kate spade outlet, cheap oakley sunglasses, nike outlet, longchamp outlet online, tiffany and co jewelry, burberry outlet online, nike free, polo ralph lauren, longchamp handbags, longchamp outlet, polo ralph lauren outlet, true religion, louis vuitton outlet, coach purses, coach outlet store online

oakleyses said...

timberland, true religion outlet, burberry pas cher, vans pas cher, air jordan, barbour, nike air max, michael kors canada, louis vuitton, louis vuitton uk, nike blazer pas cher, sac vanessa bruno, louis vuitton pas cher, air max, sac michael kors, lacoste pas cher, nike roshe run, guess pas cher, abercrombie and fitch, nike air max, north face pas cher, tn pas cher, nike air force, nike free, longchamp pas cher, true religion jeans, north face, hollister, nike free pas cher, sac louis vuitton, lululemon outlet online, air max pas cher, new balance pas cher, hollister, oakley pas cher, nike roshe, ralph lauren pas cher, scarpe hogan, ray ban uk, chaussure louboutin, michael kors uk, ray ban pas cher, mulberry uk, longchamp, ralph lauren, hermes pas cher, converse pas cher

oakleyses said...

chi flat iron, ugg, ugg outlet, uggs on sale, asics shoes, p90x workout, vans outlet, herve leger, celine handbags, valentino shoes, replica watches, lululemon outlet, giuseppe zanotti, ugg boots, nike trainers, ferragamo shoes, jimmy choo shoes, soccer jerseys, wedding dresses, mont blanc pens, soccer shoes, mcm handbags, beats headphones, north face jackets, ugg boots clearance, reebok shoes, canada goose, abercrombie and fitch, north face jackets, instyler ionic styler, mac cosmetics, ugg soldes, nfl jerseys, ugg outlet, insanity workout, babyliss, canada goose outlet, canada goose outlet, birkin bag, bottega veneta, new balance outlet, canada goose outlet, longchamp, nike huarache, ghd, hollister, uggs outlet, marc jacobs outlet, nike roshe

oakleyses said...

swarovski uk, thomas sabo uk, gucci, vans, baseball bats, air max, moncler, pandora uk, pandora charms, louboutin, swarovski jewelry, replica watches, converse, juicy couture outlet, converse shoes, moncler outlet, karen millen, ugg, canada goose pas cher, canada goose, montre femme, louis vuitton canada, wedding dress, lancel, ralph lauren, parajumpers outlet, iphone 6 case, uggs canada, juicy couture outlet, hollister clothing, oakley, supra shoes, canada goose, moncler outlet, moncler, pandora jewelry, coach outlet, timberland shoes, nike air max, moncler, moncler, hollister canada, moncler, hollister, canada goose, toms outlet, ray ban, links of london uk