Friday, June 20, 2008

power or deceit

My folk Rich has been leading an extensive discussion on this book called the 48 Laws of power. And I have seen a lot of other bloggers caught up in reading (I hope) this book as well. Although it does not interest me, I have skimmed through it briefly for I could not write what I am about to with out doing such. Initially I asked my boy Tony oh to write about this given the lengthy discussion we Sensei had on the book as well as the epistimological (quality of the reasons for our beliefs) nature of power. But he took too long so I’m going to take my stab at it although I am confident he would have done a better job.

The book is written by Robert Greene and Joost Elffers and to put it briefly, it as much to do about power as it does kool aid. In fact it is more of a book on deception and how to deceive. And by deception I mean presenting a misrepresentation or to mislead, or to brandish falsehood – all of the aforementioned being on purpose, intentional and/or deliberate.

From all of its postulates from Preaching the Need for Change, but Never Reform too much at Once (45) to Working on the Hearts and Minds of Others (43) to Playing to People’s Fantasies (32) to Concealing your Intentions (3) are not even related or associated with power but rather fabrication, deception and falsehood.

This is by no way power, especially to folk like me who has studied the sciences in particular physics. In physics, power is the rate at which work (image to right) is performed or energy is transmitted/ It can also be understood as the amount of energy required or expended for a given unit of time’ in terms of a rate of change of work done or the energy expended to do such work - when a force acts to move an object.

I hate to rain on folk’s parade, but power cannot be obtained from one book. It is not hop scotch. As Malcolm X said in his book Malcolm X speaks “The problem of power is how to achieve it responsible use rather than its irresponsible and indulgent use.” This book is just another way to make money on the non thinking and poorly read weak minded plebeians that think things, even of the esoteric kind can be learned via instruction. For as my boy Tony Oh always says, “It is not the goal to become just a king, but to be a just king.” Francis Bacon was right, when all said and done, “Knowledge is Power", and you can’t obtain such from a single book; I guess, unless one is a fool. For without reading this book, brain cell against brain cell, i feel comfotable that I will smash any one intellectually that does, as well snatch they heart and mind (thats where power lives). Ok, that’s off my chest.


professor said...

how I wish I could read those kinds of books and have those kinds of discussions...but they bore does physics...maybe I just fear what I don't understand...

Torrance Stephens bka All-Mi-T said...

lol how ya been sister

sista gp said...

Now you know I like the scientific posts.
True power can be seen when a single action by one promotes positive actions by others, exponentially. For example,
Pay It Forward, I loved the movie. Haven't read the book yet.

Dreamy said...

just stopping by to say hi.

returning some love your way

Charming Driver said...

That book sounds more like, ''I became a sociopath and SO CAN YOU'' - Ugh.

KELSO'S NUTS said...


I don't have any disagreements with your thesis and I consider myself just, but I'm fascinated as to how you square this with your extensive mathematics knowledge and your libertarian views?

Call me a cynic but I don't see any Robin Hoods out there. And you don't get to be even a "just king" without power. How you buy power without money is not that clear to me.

Let's take the extremes. Would I steal money out of a blind man's cup? Absolutely not. Would I take George W. Bush's money heads-up at any card game, board game, or who-can-put-together-better-portfolio-of-financial-assets-by-Jensen-measure? For sure.

In between, is where the real world is. I'm goint to play to win at everything but I won't cheat. Short of that, I'm looking for people with big wallets and big egos and weak scholarship to take off. And all capital markets are are agglomerations of people who may or may not have a worse opinion than you do. If I have a mathematically sound, unconventional way to put on a trade, I'm going to fade the hype and do it. And I'm going to collect without shedding a tear even if someone on the other side went for everything.

"Prop betting" is huge business privately in world gambling centers. There are people who will bet huge amounts on anything. In three lifetimes I couldn't play poker as well as Phil Ivey on Cyndy Violette but I've been told that it would be worth my while to dedicate two years of intense study of poker to be able to play in the huge cash game to a small loss just to be in position when the good props are offered. Someone actually offered 100/1 against Obama in May for example even when at his longest he was only 20/1 against in UK. There was a head-to-head bet of $100,000 on first week sales of David Beckham LA strips. Am I supposed to pass up free money because I know something about the sports apparel business and the other person doesn't?

If McCain is elected president I have a strong feeling that there will be war in Northern South America. I could easily "play" on hawkish "fantasies" and make a market that would be too inviting for Right Wing Americans to resist on the number of US casualties in the country of their "ally" Colombia before they make any move on Venezuela. I'd make the sell side way too high for any Rah-rah American warfreak to resist but low enough that he'd probably get beat by 200 positions per contract. Is that just? Absolutely not. Would I do it? Without blinking. They have a FANTASY of what US military power is like but no idea of what Colombian cities are like. I haven't cheated but I've completely taken advantage of the other side in this. I've laid a trap I know they'd fall in and if this costs anyone their house or their children's educations, all I can say is "you're a big man; you should have thought of that before opening your mouth."

I'm not fit to be king, clearly. I'm not sure that I'm moral but I know that I'm ethical.

But for a libertarian philosophy to work in practical terms, hell for a democracy to work, the world needs people like me who are willing to get in there and pick off the misguided so the market can get to the efficient price more quickly. Yes or no?

paisley said...

having not read it myself,, i am hoping i am not completely off base by saying this book gives me the same feeling as the book called the secret... i think they are both just revenue generators praying on those that feel powerless over themselves and their lives,, and want something to jump in and fix them...

i really enjoyed this post,, and your commentary on this read...

fairlane said...

For a minute, I thought you were speaking about Obama, and then I realized, you were, albeit indirectly, metaphorically.

They are no gurus, only people.

You want the key to living?

Check your pockets.

Missy said...

I should preface by saying that I haven't read the book either. I think of books like this as "A" way and not necessarily "THE" way. When taken as part of a collection of informative sources, I'm sure it serves a purpose. Sure, it's appears partially deceptive but deception doesn't have to be a bad thing all the time. As usual, moderation is the key and the act of deceiving takes many forms to varying degrees. When I applied for my first research position, I exuded a confidence that I didn't really feel. In fact, I fought nausea throughout the entire interview process. The important thing was to not show the fear, the self doubt, and the vulnerability that I felt. I wanted them to buy into the confident image that I projected. If we're honest, we deceive others all the time. Basically, we "keep a stiff upper lip" even though sometimes, our ish is looking real raggedy. We get others to buy into our dream in order to succeed in politics, business, parenting, and relationships.

Lovebabz said...

Why is it that folks want to practice the fine art of deception. What does it cost folks to be authentic in their interactions with each other, whether it is business, education, personal development or love. This notion of holding back lest someone gets the upperhand is exhausting. Power is often misconstrued as a tool to break down as opposed to building, communities, families. Power will always be illusive to foolish men who care not about the world and the need to make things better for all. Because the real power lies within knowing thy self and loving thy neighbors.

I get why people want to immerse themselves in these types of books because they believe it prepares them for the "real" game of life. They will be armed with tools to conquer all those that may stand in there way. Perhaps it has merit, perhaps its just another roadblock toward not doing the necessary work of tapping into your authentic

Tera said...

Given that I am not much of an avid reader (I'm working on that)...I'm sure that reading that book along with my (for the lack of a better description) Adult A.D.D. would have me nearly in tears from boredom.

Anyways, people are going to do what they need to do to make that all mighty dollar, and the sad thing is there are folks out there who get sucked into such madness because they do not have a strong mind and cannot clearly see what you've stated in this post---the obvious.

The Jaded NYer said...

I read some of that book, and yes, it didn't sit right with me, either. From the bit I read, it felt like game playing, like that dating book that came out a while ago, "The Rules." BLECH

I'm not much for game playing in life. Here are my cards, face up. Don't like it? then keep it movin...

good post.

DivaJood said...

As we've seen with Bush and Cheney, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Knowledge is real power. Education breeds power.
Absolute power hates others to have knowledge. So the action is to spread falsehood, and create fear. Fear is false evidence appearing real.

KELSO'S NUTS said...

Is it possible that FAIRLANE and I are the only flawed human beings on a site of angels?

I'd never read that book that Torrence slams in his post because from the capsule descriptions I've read, it's bad scholarship.

I've had the good fortune to study with great scholars and be mentored by outstanding practicioners in the art of moving money. Torrence has studied the same stuff I have: probability theory, the theory of finance, macro and micro economics, econometrics, game theory and so on.

When you know all this stuff you see opportunities BECAUSE of the public's fear and greed and ego and insecurity and LACK of scholarship. You take those opportunities or someone else will. I'm not advocating lying or cheating or stealing. That behavior is ipso facto immoral and unethical.

And I'm not advocating exploiting weakness as a way of succeeding in the arts or medicine or physics. In finance and gambling, it's a sine qua non.

Another case in point: about 12 years ago a partner and I ran money in emerging markets interest rates, currencies, futures, options, and exotic derivatives. There were some trades that were extremely obvious. A naked long position in forward Greek Drachma was one of them. You were getting paid 20% interest per annum to hold a currency whose underlying economy had 5% inflation. 15% real interest rate when 10% was hard to find. Plus, it was about to be admitted into the Euro zone.

It was very hard to find either real Drachma or synthetic Drachma to lend. But this was a very esoteric corner of the financial world and not all that anonymous. One of the players was some big-shot fund-manager who had written a self-congratulatory autobiography and had proclaimed that quantitative analysis was dead and he knew better. My partner and I were completely in synch on being purely quantitative. We NEEDED Drachma to lend but there was none around. So, my partner became absolutely EXPERT in needling and cajoling this fund-manager into writing us synthetic long Drachma positions for dollar cash-settlement just to prove that he knew better. And we beat him every three month, yet my partner knew exactly which subtle buttons to push to activate the guy's ego.

Jeez, we had copies of his autobiography with which to figure out tactics to get him to bite. And it was a great laugh between my partner and me to work out what we'd say to the guy at each rollover.

We had our money at stake and our investors including a couple of French banks. Were we not supposed to do this when we were able to and fail the people who believed in our abilities? Why should our money and theirs be less sacred than that of the fund manager whose ego we could play upon to get him on the wrong side of a trade that he knew was wrong?

We never lied. We just offered our real opinions about the Greek Drachma but in a way that we knew would piss him off. He was rich and famous and we were nobodies (and still are). He could not back down to us and he desperately needed to prove us wrong. That was his problem.

If I'm a social worker, I'd probably run plays to get my clients better government services, too. Is that wrong?

Ahh...the lonely life of a sinner!

Garth Sullivan said...


all you have done is validate torrance's point that the book is not about power, but deception.

apparently, you enjoy hustling others. fine. a fool and their money are soon parted and all that. you may even have convinced yourself that what you're doing is ethical. maybe it is, but it has everything to do with deception...

i would hope there are more satisfying ways to make a living than taking advantage of others, no matter how justified.

Torrance Stephens bka All-Mi-T said...

sista gp
I love science, and u know I don’t go to the movies - lol

Thanks for the love folk

Charming Driver
I would tend to agree for only them types applaud it. Rich is just sharing the possibilities like scholars do.

You aint a cynic folk. All I am saying is that power from the authors perspective is misdefined. Knowledge as u know is power.

Math and science, especially know and application of such is power. The book don’t even mention such. And I will say yes. But not with regards to this tractate, reminds me of a how to loose weight book LOL

It is in the same light and u are not off base, folks need stuff to kling too, especially the needy, helpless, non self sufficient and weak.


You want the key to living?

Check your pockets.

True, but not speaking is not deceptive. It is just not stating. I can not speak and have actions dictate deception or not being deceptive. But most folks lie. Like I said n a post before some folks think not getting caught in a lie is the same as telling the truth

Many are afraid to be authentic, for folks will have to accept them as they are. And many of us are un happy with what we are.

Yep bordom is right. How is my blog crushee today lol. I am flattered

The Jaded NYer
Thanks hon how hot is it in NYCV today, it is just that, game playing

Here here.

True bad scholarship
True we are all sinners

And the knowledge u speak off is power, real power. Why worry about others if you control your re4ality with the power of though is my position? Deceiption is not needed, I mean why deceive yourself.

Torrance Stephens bka All-Mi-T said...

well said, the scholar will loose his money based on personal rumination and dialetical decision making. A scholar will never hustle themselves

KELSO'S NUTS said...

Garth Sullivan:

I wasn't disputing Torrance's view. I was interested in them and trying to coax a little more out of him on the book itself.

As for me, I don't particularly enjoy hustling people, though it has its moments. I really prefer anonymous liquid markets.

But at the end of the day, the art of estimation is my only real skill. It's the only work I've ever done, although I've studied a lot of different subjects.

I already wrote that I'm kind of hard-wired to look for the best of it. If I were a social worker, and there was some runaway referred to me, I'd probably use all my hustling skills to find that kid the PREMIUM foster home and I'd take pride in having done it.

Everybody's different. I have no illusions about who or what I am. I make no excuses. When I reached the age of cognitive awareness, I understood that this was what I was good at. Buddy, if I could play classical violin I would.

Dusty said...

I couldn't sit and read that book. It would frustrate the hell out of me for starters.

Power simply for powers sake is always a bad thing.

I do like the Francis Bacon quote Torrance. Thanks for using that one.

In the Unitary Executive theory, all the power is concentrated into on person or office.

Power of and by the people, on the other hand, spreads out and dilutes the power so that it ends up being more of a compromise because of the sheer numbers of differences that will be out there within the electorate.

Very interesting topic Torrance. ;)

Garth Sullivan said...

i just caught the title. what a joke.

i guess i shouldn't be surprised that a book that purports to be on laws of power, but focuses pretty much on deception, would itself be deceptively titled.

professor, you can't read these books because they don't make any sense at all.

Torrance Stephens bka All-Mi-T said...

people who deal in probaility such as your self know that the risk in hustling dont out weigh the beneifits

plus, Babz told me about your eyes, dont fuck them up any more
and diod u email sista GP
she getting her spanish on cause of u lolo

coax me, no way folk lol

Torrance Stephens bka All-Mi-T said...

my point exactly laws
i thought laws were "The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena."

Garth Sullivan said...

i didn't mean to bust your nuts, nor, did i mean to imply that you actually did hustle for a living.

i mean none of us are above playing the occasional angle, but, to the extent your posts implied this was somehow ethical behavior smacked a little bit of self-deception.

no worries. i loved the post and the anecdote about the dhrama.

Garth Sullivan said...

bust Kelso's Nuts.

just to be clear.

Torrance Stephens bka All-Mi-T said...

no exit
true sarteian (if such is a word)
u got me laughin', Kelso is kool, like u and me well read - we a dying bread
and since i cant watch college world series, im thanking yawl both
but u got me rolling now

KELSO'S NUTS said...

GARTH: I took no offense whatsoever. Just wanted a chance to sneak in that line about playing "classical violin"! LOL

All about the rawks (laughs), as my father sez.

Nah, I'm not self deluded at all. I've always been of the lead with the chin school; get the worst stuff about you out there so you got nothing to hide!

Just trying to toss a line in the water and see if anyone would bite!

TORRANCE: My eye is better, thanks for asking. Yes, I got in touch with Sista GP and swapped emails with her Panamanian friend.

Torrance Stephens bka All-Mi-T said...

no typo bread
as in bread of life

Rich said...

Loving the discussion. While I didn't see the book as a way to gain power, it was enlightening as far as the games and lengths that people go to in order to get the upper hand -- definitely manipulation. But isn't that what good ole American Power is. Look at our supposed "dumb" leader of these United States. He manipulated the minds of enough people or played the pawn, and earned himself a place in history by garnering the top office.

As far as the title, it's just marketing if you ask me. Lists sell books, people like steps. Which is why you can go to church and get peddled "The 7 steps to Prosperous Living" and folks eat it like it's the last supper.

sista gp said...

@KELSO and Torrance: I have to know what I am passing on.

GO DAWGS!!! Enjoy another day off!!!

Maybe you can catch tonight's game.

12kyle said...

sounds like an interesting read. first...i gotta cop your book! lol

Ms. Jones said...

Although your view on the book was articulated clearly I have to disagree with you on this one (its all love though)! It greatly depends on what expectations one has for a book like this that determines how it will be viewed. Being a psychology major I believe Greene's books are all about the extent to which the human mind can be intentionally controlled and manipulated. Although I haven't read the "48 Laws of Power" I have read his book "The Art of Seduction". Greene's books are of more interest and hold a greater meaning to those who are interested in how human interactions/methods have the ability to predict the outcomes of situations, I don't think his work is for the literal crowd and it has to be read with a fully open mind to a new way of thinking.

When I was in school Greene's books were popular in the psych crowd because his "literature" reinforced every psychological method and theory that we were being taught...just my two cents!

msladydeborah said...

Interesting...I have had people recommend this book to me. It did not sound like something that I would really appreciate reading.

The power to change is not or should not be placed on the shoulders of others. That is an incorrect notion about the process.

Change comes when an individual has become powerful enough to realize that they want to work towards the difference.

Empowerment opportunities are continually present. We encounter them daily. And we make choices about the degree of impact those moments have in our lives.

Is it fair to say that even when it is necessary to have the energy of motion, that there may be the encounter of resistance to that energy force?

That seems to be within the natural order of movement. There are times when production from energy is high volume with minimal effort.

Then there are times when that same level of effort is difficult because there is some form of barrier present.

That always seems to be the lull prior to change. When it seems to be difficult to remember why you wanted it so badly in the first place?

Nor does change seem to enter into our lives quickly. I have discovered that it is like a birthing process. With rituals of acknowledgement and wisdom taking place during that pre-labor period.

I know my logic sounds very female in its tone. I understand things from this perspective. I believe that not using it is denying myself the opportunity to see if I am on base.

Tony OH said...

Now that's that ish! Truly put together like a Professor... FYI, I couldn't have said it any better!

Thanx Bro, for shedding the light!

Anonymous said...

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
A. Lincoln

Mom's way of saying it - "people show act funny when they get a little money!"

Anyone who needs to buy a book to learn power techniques is simply lame. Thanks for sharing this report - PLL, CordieB. Check this - it's one of the most powerful sources known to men and women -

Anonymous said...

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
A. Lincoln

Mom's way of saying it - "people show act funny when they get a little money!"

Anyone who needs to buy a book to learn power techniques is simply lame. Thanks for sharing this report - PLL, CordieB. Check this - it's one of the most powerful sources known to men and women -

Torrance Stephens bka All-Mi-T said...

I thank u for getting me to think about it. Was wondering what the hoop la was all about and like shakespear said, muct to do about nothing

sista gp
Yep, UGA put it down

Yep, get my book LOL. This one is not worthy of reading

Ms. Jones
I can respect that, but one with a phd in psychology, I do not see it as doing such (at least not this book). It does not even approach the basic standards of psychological theory. And does not even attempt to define forms of behavior, it just provides steps – where is the actualization. Nothing about ego development or maturation.

The tone is pragmatic and not female, but I could not agree more with what u said

Tony OH
Thanks Folk

I agree

Anonymous said...

I purchased this book years ago and thought it was an interesting read, I didn't finish it all though...I have recommended it to others as well.

My recommendations to others was never based on gaining power but a tool to learn how others will or may attempt to gain power. So many people in our society are ruthless and unwilling to show their true potential and waiting to stomp on that other person showing and giving everything they have.

Just as you are writing this post and stating this book is about deceptions and falsehoods, there are others who are eating this book up and following it to the 'T'.

I can't say I regret reading the book one bit. It did take me some time since it got kind of boring after the first 10 pages.....

Mizrepresent said...

I haven't read the book, but from the excerpts Rich posted on his blog, i have to agree with you that is about deception to obtain success or power...which i don't buy, and wouldn't want to practice...i happen to believe in the "you reap what you sow"...theory.

Jersey Girl said...

I haven't read the book, nor do I plan to read it in the future. I think people get too caught up in the idea of power - power over others. I prefer to think of power as the confidence and engergy we have within ourselves to do someting positive with our lives. I don't need to have power OVER someone to feel powerful. I don't need money to feel power. I need confidence, education, and open mind and an open heart to feel powerful. I just think that too many people today believe that power puts you in charge and makes you rich. But you can be a weak, cowardly piece of crap and have those things. So what?

I read an African proverb once that has stuck with me for many years. This is a paraphrase, because I don't remember the exact wording, but it was something very close to:

No man has ever become taller by forcing another to his knees.

Yet that's the kind of "power" so many people are looking for these days. I find it truly sad.

Ms. Jones said...

I respect your opinion T, but I think if you were to glance at his book "The Art of Seduction" then you will see where I'm coming from. I've never picked up the book you are referencing, so maybe in regards to that particular book you are right.

Aunt Jackie said...

my favorite books about power are; The Power of Awareness by Neville, The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle and the Power of Intention by Dr Wayne Dwyer.

Ironically in one of the closing chapters in the Power of Now the idea of what to do when one is subject to someone trying to manipulate or deceive them is addressed and the response is poignant and simple...

Say no and walk away( paraphrased)

We are only subject to that which we allow ourselves to be when we are conscious, when we are unconscious there is a world of manipulation and deception that we could easily be subject to in my opinion. I stay grounded in me. I read allot....

I don't know what other's read or subscribe to because even if I don't agree with the teachings, if it's not for me there's no need for me to object I just choose what's best for me and keep it moving...

PreciousGem-Refinement in Progress said...

Crazy to me that a book exists to "teach" the art or science of deceit.

I am going back to South Africa, Swaziland this time too. I am too hyped!

Goddess said...

A men! Many of my male friends try to impress by stating they are reading this book about power .. which one I would ask .. oh the 48 Laws of Power. Then, the convo would turn into a heated discussion since I never agreed that the manipulative ideas of one man can indeed make the reader "powerful". BS I called it. Thanks for your piece.

Thoughts on The Art of War ?

Utterly-Serene said...

I didnt read the book but I found the laws awhile back on the internet and most of them was a bunch of BS.

I agree in saying they play to people that want a quick and easy fix to things. No body wants to put in work for stuff these days, they want the upper hand/advantage by deception or quick witted mind games.

Point to ponder, Knowledge is not power, it only becomes power when you put that knowledge to use. My pastor gives a good analogy: You have knowledge that plugging a radio into the socket will give you music, but if you never plug the radio in, your knowledge is useless. Or a heart surgeon that knows how to operate, but never operates. Who's gonna know you can operate if you've never done it?

So yes knowledge is power, but if your a lazy bum and not using that knowledge, your knowledge is useless and powerless!

Utterly-Serene (formally known as No Limit)

VertigoVirgo said...

I was seeing a guy once who told me the way he used to get girls. He would first act as an unintersted party, then in doing so gain the girls interest, once that was done he would then ask the girl questions about herself, and offer little to nothing about himself, then he would go in for the "kill". Once he told me this, he told me to read the book where he had learned these manuvers..."The 48 Laws of Power". So, I did, I began reading it, and at first it was ok, but the further along I read the more demonic that book became. I cannot tell you how utterly horrible that book is morally and spiritually. If you are a person that does not care for either of those things nor cared for the sanity of others then it is perfect, but there is no way in a persons right mind that they can read that book and not see how obscuring it is to all thigs good. He also has other books such as "The Art of Seduction"...that book is evil to, it even states in one of the levels to "use the demonic powers of persuasion" .

Torrance Stephens bka All-Mi-T said...

My recommendations to others was never based on gaining power but a tool to learn how others will or may attempt to gain power. So many people in our society are ruthless and unwilling to show their true potential and waiting to stomp on that other person showing and giving everything they have. Great advice

Hey u i hope all is well

Jersey Girl
They get caught up always in that which misleads and misdirects. Great comment

Ms. Jones
I can get with that sister

Aunt Jackie
Classic, and spoken like the scholar u are sister

PreciousGem-Refinement in Progress
Hey be safe sister

Wow, do they read King and Diop in the same fame,. Or even the wall street journal? Sad

I agree, no one belives or desire to work hard and work ethic is all folk here got aside a kind heart and so true
So yes knowledge is power, but if your a lazy bum and not using that knowledge, your knowledge is useless and powerless!

Yep it’s a book for those without faith, skill, though process and integrity

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