Saturday, May 17, 2008

Educational profiling

SIDE BAR: My coreopsis started to bloom and they were jamming friday night on radio disney at 8pm

Profiling is a strange and tricky subject. We are all profiled in certain ways. Women are often profiled. I can only imagine what it may be like to walk in a bar or happy hour and see al these goons starring at specified apportionments of ones anatomy over ones eyes. Now don’t get me wrong. I mean I attend to observations that outline in layman terms as a phat azz azz, and that such will leave an imprint as operationalized by Konrad Lorenz and his work with Graylag Geese, but I don’t have to gawk for the eyes are even more so appropriate to gaze into as well as show value and respect.

Then there is what I am familiar with, racial profiling. I get this all the time, not just by twelve, but people also. They look at my face and proceed to think I maintain the possibility of a criminal disposition. They see my hair and are even brazen enough to ask if I sell weed or if I am a musician. Even worse, they ask if they can touch it as if they were petting a goat in the public zoo.

Believe it or not I can deal wit he later, but there is one type of profiling that slides well subaltern the radar. I have decided to call it educational profiling. As a man, a man of African descent, I have been blessed to obtain what many would consider the highest merit in Academia – a terminal degree. If I am not in one of the times when I tell them I do construction work, I sometimes say I am an infectious disease specialist, an associate professor with a PHD in the appropriate discipline.

Sometimes their look alters, but from that moment on, when a person find out I have a PHD, they start to profile me. They beginning to ask why didn’t I introduce myself as such, or say Dr. Stephens. I respond, “My momma named me Torrance, not doctor.”

They think hat the addition of three letters behind your name or two in front makes you different. In the same way it makes folks who are Islamic different in America or African American males, driving on the highway different and warranting more scrutiny. They have expectations, of being snappy, boastful and pedantic. They see them as being intellectual astute, competent, and maybe even well to do. It is a burden I don’t like. Just because I display accomplishment ex post facto hard work, discipline and patience.

The place you above what you are and where come from and act as if magically being a Dr (what ever that is) makes you automatically smarter, more important and beneficial than the average person. The answer is NO we are not. True, I got some colleagues that think they the smartest person in the world, and even with a PHD introduce themselves as Dr. They may not even be tight, or worse got their PHD when they stopped being proficient in a foreign language. That took about 65% of the folks who were in class with me. Truth is they may be actually dim, poor read and even unversed in the scientific literature or their field. Scary to me, and don’t even ask them about their research or publication record, don’t exist. Then these be the loudest ones bragging. But at any case.

Next time you meet someone or know up front but their terminal illness called a doctorate, see if you change how you see them or compare them to another standard. See if you profile folks too. Like I said, my momma aint name me doctor nor did getting one make me more smarter if I had not. And al the degrees I have worked had for, that Hamilton High School Diploma, followed by Morehouse mean the most.

62 comments:

Kayos said...

Women are profiled more than often. How bout all the time? The problem is that you can't profile a woman because a woman only lets you know and see what she wants you to.

But profiling educationally is beyond intellectually accuracy. I can sound like I have a PhD and be a ghetto rat. It's called playing the game. The only thing is that I could be telling you who I am but then again...I could not.

ViolentLove said...

I like how you think. You gotta nice, easy feel going on.

People are always trying to wrap their minds around other ppl. Trying to box it all up neat and tidy in their heads so there are no unsightly messes. Thing is, you limit yourself if you create boxes, categories and/or levels for ppl.

I wish we could all just BE, ya know? Just flowing in the moment with whoever is in front of us, honoring and respecting each persons unique journey of truth and using our lives as examples of real men and women making a better way.

It's all about the heart.

DeadMule said...

Hi T., Profiling is wrong. But as to the PhD part, sometimes you can't win. Some want to be called Dr. Z and are real put out if you call them anything else. Some hate it. My brother-in-law was embarrassed to be called Dr.C.

The part that upsets me is when a black man or woman feels the pressure of "representing his/her race." That puts unrealistic demands on a human (imperfect) individual. That is much, much worse than calling you Dr. Stephens, maybe out of respect. Maybe not.

Torrance Stephens bka All-Mi-T said...

Kayos
So true and I have been guilty of such, but only on the atonomical front, never job or atire, but more so what they say as to how they think

ViolentLove
just Be.....all about the heart so true

Dead Mule
I never placed that onmyself, but others did, i got no problem with, its the same as trying to crush a cholera epidemic in a prison in Africa. But I decide, just don give that too me, even though its an honor and not unrealistic if i can think it, next, will it be role model, i cant decide who looks up to me and who dont

Jaded said...

Well, I both agree and disagree. A degree doesn't necessarily make you smarter than other people. But, how can we expect people to respect the value of an education if we devalue the degree and respect for that education by not acknowledging it? People have to work for the privilege to be called "doctor." If a child respects someone who has earned that privilege, maybe he or she would strive to gain that same kind of respect. I would think there has to be a happy medium between the two.

Actually, the titles I'm most proud of are Mrs. and Mommy.

I do like what you said about looking into someone's eyes. That speaks volumes as to your character. Well said!

JayBee said...

good to know you're grounded. haven't let that piece of paper (forgive me for trivializing--i know it was lots of hard work to earn it) go to your head. i profile people with advanced degrees. i automatically think they are hardworkers, possibly smart or smarter than others, but mainly i think they are really hardworkers and have lots of perseverance.

Lovebabz said...

You know that I adore you and love everything you give a voice to. But I am so not feeling you on this post.

It is at best, insulting and disrespectful for you to down play your academic achievements and accomplishments. Especially in light of the assault on men of color. You have earned the right to be called Dr. Stephens. It is a priviledge and an honor.`

Uncomfortable? are you fucking kidding me. Profiling...are you fucking kidding me. This is our reality every day in America. But when you are pulled over, when you are unfairly maligned it is a bon for us all when it is noted that you are Dr. Torrence Stephens. That is worth something. That is inspiring.

I'll not have you piss on this. I'll not stand by and allow you to make small this accomplishment.

Get the fuck over yourself and represent.

I get you not wanting to laude this accomplishment over folks that look like you. But Baby at the end of the day we need to let them know that we are here with the credentials to talk shit and hold it down.

Remember how many men and women had to endure being called "nigger" "boy" "girl" and other deragotory names even as PhD's and learned folks.

Think not of yourself...but of those that have gone before you and those that will come after you. Those before you have paid a price for you to be who you are. Free thinking and unencumbered in your grasp and reach of the world.

Aunt Jackie said...

I have to say that although you may feel some kinda way about your education that i strongly disagree as a whole that degrees are negative forms of profiling.

My Grandfather earned his PHD in the late 1940s, post depression era, during segregation when men in his area where being hung, quite frequently for seeking an education, where his community had been under attack (Tulsa, Black Wall Street) for being home to the black financial epicenter of the country and yes it did make him different and I'm going to say better off.

Why? Because it gave him a chance to pass on the gift of knowledge to those who have come after him, to make him a leader not just in his community but in the halls of academia where assisted thousands of young black women and children pursue their academic dreams.

If we as a people are so arrogant to forget that education is something that got us hanged, beaten, raped, tortured and abused for, we are truly lost.

If these young kids today think that doing nothing and being themselves is the same as earning a PHD they are dead wrong.

You of course have the right to feel the way that you feel about yourself and your own life, but fundamentally I think the problem is these young kids minds have been toxified by the idea of "keeping it real" so much that they have lost their natural minds.

You reap the rewards of you education on a daily basis, so why would you encourage anyone to put it down....

I'm with lovebabz on this one, i'm reaching but I really can't feel you!

soupasexy said...

i really dont think there's anything anyone can do about it. it might be wrong but that's just the way life is.
it's sad though.

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CapCity said...

just came thru to holla @ a bruthah!

folk who profile others often crack me up w/ their ignance...

clnmike said...

Whats up man!

I must say I never was big on the idea of having a degree some how entitled some one to more respect than some one with out. Especially since having a degree and having common sense do not go hand in hand.

I am more worried about the cop vs black man variety of profiling. Who doesnt seem to care about the degree.

Curious said...

I had a professor once who said as she was addressing some class I was taking, that everyone should try and go for a Phd because that was the ultimate achievement in the academic world. Once you got it, although I think she was really addressing the women in the class at that point, you should insist on people respecting your achievement by having them call you doctor, because you've earned it. She had issues when she was younger about being disrespected for being a woman in what is generally a man's world.

I think everyone is profiled at one time or another, but we all have opportunities and choices to prove whether those profiles are correct or not. After all a profile is just someone else's assumption or perception of a member of a group that they really don't know.

Tin Ma'am said...

I absolutely profile people all the damn time. I don't apologize for it either. I treat soldiers/marines/sailors one way and hold them to a certain standard. THe same way I hold anti-war/anti-troop protesters in a way that I deem appropriate for them.
Sorry, that might seem callous, but my views are not racist or sexist. If someone's ogling me, if someone is being loud and obnoxious, if someone born and raised here cannot speak proper english... do I really need to give a crap about their life story? I will treat them appropriate to how they act.

no_slappz said...

rdb, you wrote:

"If I am not in one of the times when I tell them I do construction work, I sometimes say I am an infectious disease specialist, an associate professor with a PHD in the appropriate discipline."

It seems you are saying that you lie to people about your background. What value do you find in lying to people?

rdb, you did something very interesting here. You began your post by telling readers you dislike the idea and experience of being profiled.

Then you profiled the profilers.

According to you profilers:

"Sometimes their look alters, but from that moment on, when a person find out I have a PHD, they start to profile me."

"They beginning to ask why didn’t I introduce myself as such, or say Dr. Stephens."

I've met a lot of Ph.D.s in my life. Unless we meet in circumstances where knowing educational credentials is relevant, people rarely mention their doctorates. Almost never. Even less common in my experience, is meeting people who behave the way you say people behave after they learn that they are talking to a person with a doctorate.

You further profiled:

"They think hat the addition of three letters behind your name or two in front makes you different."

In fact, it does. At the very least, a person holding a doctorate has achieved something few people achieve. But you seem to infuse a qualitative measure in your views. Maybe one out of a thousand persons obtains a PhD in the US. Thus, they are rare. Whether they are good or bad is another subject.

More of your profiling analysis:

"In the same way it makes folks who are Islamic different in America or African American males, driving on the highway different and warranting more scrutiny."

You have identified two groups of people who do display specific behaviors and characteristics that identify them. This is self-evident, and obviously you agree. You have identified two groups of people by noting their readily apparent characteristics. Are you wrong? Are Muslims, in fact, not Muslims? Can you spot a Muslim by his dress and/or his behavior? Is it possible to know something about Muslims by knowing something about Islam and the Islamic theocracies that exist in the world?

You revealed more of your profiling analysis:

"They have expectations, of being snappy, boastful and pedantic. They see them as being intellectual astute, competent, and maybe even well to do."

In other words, you've gotten into the minds of all non-PhD people and taken an inventory of their expectations for the small group of people with doctoral degrees. I think you are only repeating a few anecdotes that might be nothing more than your personal experiences.

But maybe you have a small point about the expectations of some people. Bill Cosby has a doctorate in education. He's snappy, as you said PhDs are. Is he boastful? I'm not sure. Is he pedantic? Well, some of his humor has taken the form of instruction. Thus, I suppose you could say he shows some signs of being pedantic.

You also said profilers see PhDs "as being intellectual astute, competent, and maybe even well to do."

I think Cosby fits the preceding description.

You then lamented:

"It is a burden I don’t like."

You're complaining about humans being human. Who are these people who affect you so? Are they real? Or are they imaginary? Why should you care about the inconsequential beliefs of people who probably do not exist?

You continued your profiling:

"The place you above what you are and where come from and act as if magically being a Dr (what ever that is) makes you automatically smarter, more important and beneficial than the average person."

You seem to be saying that profilers see themselves as having less status than people with PhDs. Sometimes it's true, sometimes not. Regarding their intelligence, well, as a graduate of an engineering program, I will state that every PhD professor who taught me was highly intelligent, knowledgeable and accomplished. They were all smarter than 99% of the population, without a doubt.

In a burst of equality, you said:

"The answer is NO we are not."

It is always an error to speak for an entire group.

Then you profiled some PhD co-workers:

"True, I got some colleagues that think they the smartest person in the world, and even with a PHD introduce themselves as Dr."

Again, why the concern with egomaniacal gasbags?

More profiling of PhD coworkers:

"They may not even be tight, or worse got their PHD when they stopped being proficient in a foreign language."

You'll have to explain this one. Most PhD programs require some language proficiency.

You added:

"That took about 65% of the folks who were in class with me."

What does this mean? If you are talking about the drop-out rate from PhD programs, well, your number is equal to the number of people who drop out of engineering programs. Why is this an issue?

Then you profiled more:

"Truth is they may be actually dim, poor read and even unversed in the scientific literature or their field. Scary to me, and don’t even ask them about their research or publication record, don’t exist. Then these be the loudest ones bragging. But at any case."

In your final profiling of your fellow PhDs, you say they are: dim, poorly read, know little about their own fields, publish little or nothing, and they are braggarts.

rdb, how does your personal form of profiling differ from the profiling you have criticized?

Torrance Stephens bka All-Mi-T said...

slapz
it doesnt, and im sure they feel as i do when it occurs - me not perfect - me human being. well said

no_slappz said...

rdb, you wrote:

"...im sure they feel as i do when it occurs..."

This comment opens up something I've SEEN many times.

I will be frank, this is one white man's observation of black behavior.

It boils down to this: mind-reading.

Over many years of living in NY City I've witnessed many exchanges between strangers thrown together by circumstances, like riding in the same subway car, or bus, or sharing some other space.

When exchanges occur, I've noticed some patterns. One of the most often repeated is a black telling a stranger that he/she knows what the stranger is thinking.

I've seen this lead to lots of claims by the black speaker that the stranger -- often white -- is thinking of how to harm the black speaker or blacks in general.

Blogs are also good places to find examples of a certain kind of paranoia. Blogs where racism is discussed are often forums for people to claim they are victims of other peoples' -- whites -- thoughts and actions. The outpourings of writers always include statements of the thoughts of whites, but almost always thoughts that the writer thinks he/she has acquired by reading the mind of the white person.

Even Obama slipped into this game of mind-reading when he attempted to analyze the feelings of whites in Pennsylvania.

If I were profiling blacks, I would have to conclude that mind-reading is a leading activity.

Torrance Stephens bka All-Mi-T said...

slapz
the mind reading, is true but folk like u and me woul leave it to uri geller (sp) lol

LeAnne@Hairs My Story Team said...

I absolutely profile people all the damn time. I don't apologize for it either. I treat soldiers/marines/sailors one way and hold them to a certain standard. THe same way I hold anti-war/anti-troop protesters in a way that I deem appropriate for them.
Sorry, that might seem callous, but my views are not racist or sexist. If someone's ogling me, if someone is being loud and obnoxious, if someone born and raised here cannot speak proper english... do I really need to give a crap about their life story? I will treat them appropriate to how they act.


Wow! Well, i guess I used to think you were right when I was younger. But, after going to college I've learned that different people apply their genius in various ways.
hairsmystory.com

no_slappz said...

rdb, I'm not sure how to interpret your comment about leaving the mind-reading to Uri Geller. Geller and all the others who claim to perform mental feats are frauds.

Magicians tell you they are performing TRICKS and ILLUSIONS. Thus, as a viewer, you are prepared to enjoy being fooled.

Thus, they are not the same as people who insist they have supernatural powers.

Anyway, the study of anything and everything results in breaking things down to their elemental parts. We've been studying human society since the first man walked the Earth. We've learned a lot, but some of what we've learned is unflattering. Meanwhile, there's also a lot to commend.

We know that groups can be defined by their behaviors and that many traits and characteristics are common to members of groups. These observations should make it easier to eliminate or reduce harmful or counter-productive actions among group members.

Of course, millions of people continue to smoke cigarettes. Despite knowing the health consequences and bearing the high cost of buying cigarettes, they persist.

Immoral Matriarch said...

I agree with Tin Ma'am. If you act like an idiot, I'm likely to treat you as one. And even if I find out you have a PhD or whatever else, I'll still treat you as what you present yourself as.

*shrugs*

Torrance Stephens bka All-Mi-T said...

LeAnne@Hairs My Story Team
yep diff folks do


no_slappz
well said, cant argue with that


Immoral Matriarch
y the shrugs its something i experience, but never when in a suit so go figure

sista gp said...

Dr. Stephens...just kidding...

My hubby gets a kick out of driving up next to an older white person, glances over at them, and makes sure that THEY see HIM lock his doors. Being a big, bald, black guy, he gets profiled all the time.

no_slappz said...

sista gp, you wrote:

"My hubby gets a kick out of driving up next to an older white person, glances over at them, and makes sure that THEY see HIM lock his doors."

Why?

Does he know what older white people are thinking as he drives up and creates this scene?

It appears that you believe there is value in racial games. Why is that?

According to you and your husband, what are these white drivers supposed to think after this odd display?

You wrote:

"Being a big, bald, black guy, he gets profiled all the time."

Have you got some actual examples? Or is this profiling actually imaginary?

sista gp said...

@no_slappz
I am not in the mood, so let's not go there. T knows what I meant.

You are trying to read my mind.

And if you were a big, bald, black guy, you would know that there is no imagination needed, reality is enough.

no_slappz said...

sista gp,

I think you have imagined the profiling. But, like most people who fabricate stories, you don't like to face that fact.

sista gp said...

@no_slappz
Here's a fact:
An entire department receives pay increases. There are three positions within the department: Entry Level Programmer (ELP), Programmer/Analyst 1 (PA1), and Programmer/Analyst 2 (PA2). The PA2s were elevated to $42,000+, most PA1s were elevated to $39,000 or $40,000 based on experience. ELPs were raised to $37,000. Everyone in the department, except for one, were increased to a value of multiple of $1,000. That exception, the only female of African descent in the department, a PA1, was elevated to $36,900, $100 lower than the ELPs (white males). This woman, a PA1 had multiple degrees, more technical experience than many in her position, highly acclaimed by customers, and had exceptional annual assessments.
This is no fabrication or hearsay, the woman is me.
Even though this occurred over 10 years ago, it is still in my present everyday, a part of my life.
You can never understand unless you live it.
There is more, but I do have the time nor the desire to discuss this now.
FYI, the stories I fabricate will be in my books. I will let you know when they are available for purchase.

no_slappz said...

sista gp,

Based on your story -- which had no direct connection to the questions I asked you -- you have serious anti-white feelings because you believe you may have received a raise that was a tiny bit less than raises received by your co-workers.

First, did you SEE -- with your own eyes -- the paychecks of your co-workers after raises were awarded?

Salaries and raises are always confidential matters between the employee and a couple of other people within a company and/or department. Individual raises are never revealed by employers.

Meanwhile, employees have been known to lie about their pay. Therefore, unless you saw the paychecks of your co-workers -- ten years ago -- you are unlikely to know exactly what others received.

There is also the possibility that your pay was raised $900 when others received $1,000 raises. If that were the case, I'd say someone wanted you to get the message that you were not the most popular person in the department.

If you think this is unusual, you've got an uninformed view of office politics. At one place I worked, those of us in the firm's largest department were given raises that varied from $2,000 to $10,000. Even though we all performed the same job -- which was writing financial reports and performing financial analyses of public companies -- the amount of annual raises varied widely. Work quality varied, but not a lot.

Raises reflected both the quality of individual work and the ability of employees to work smoothly and effectively with each other. We all had responsibilities related to the publishing of our reports, which meant we had deadlines to meet each week.

I should point out that almost every employee in the department was a white male. My first raise was very low. I was insulted, quite frankly. But later raises came in $10,000 increments.

What changed? My supervisor. My first boss gave me the crappy raise. He left the company and was replaced by someone who gave me high raises. I think I worked equally hard and equally effectively for both supervisors. But the first one gave me a crappy raise, probably because he didn't like me much. Big deal.

Anyway, based on the fact that you identified yourself as the only black in the department, it's clear you believe race accounts for the slight difference between your raise and the amount you believe others received. Furthermore, based on the evident joy you experience when your husband plays his game on whites in cars, it's clear you've got some anti-white animosities.

Have you ever been physically attacked by a white person?

Do you know anyone who has been physically attacked by a white person?

Do you have personal knowledge or experience with blacks being injured in attacks committed by whites?

I'm always curious about experience versus imagination in these situations.

Curious said...

I've lost track of what's going on here.

No_Slappz are you saying that profiling doesn't exist because of sista gp's story, which is actually a case of discrimination and not profiling, or are you saying that because her husband reflects the same attitude given to black men by white people is racist and self-delusional? Because if you are, I can provide you with a number of stories of when I was younger and hearing the sound of car locks lock as I came close to a white person in a car. I can tell you of the times when I would be stopped by the police, searched and questioned whether I was on foot or driving and even told once that I was stopped on the NJ Turnpike because I looked Jamaican. I figured out later on "Jamaican" was a euphemism for drug runner.

So in support of sista gp, profiling does exist my friend. It may not be the biggest sin on the table but it does hurt emotionally if not physically.

shine said...

@ no slappz--"black behavior"
wow, you offer such a nuanced construction of American racial politics. How am I to respond? (I frown in disgust)

@raw dawg--I understand your frustration. I'm sickened by fierce pretension—which is especially rampant in law school. However, I do believe that it is important for you to own your experiences/education. You accomplish nothing by masking your truth. With your degree, you are uniquely positioned to directly or indirectly affect positive change--bring light.

no_slappz said...

shine,

Group behaviors exist. We can examine patterns that are common to whites, blacks, asians and every ethnicity of interest.

Your recoil at the notion of "black behavior" suggests you believe everyone is the same.

no_slappz said...

curious,

I asked sist gp several specific questions that arose from after she posted her comments.

But she has refused to answer simple questions. At this point, I think her refusals reflect that she's carrying some anti-white feelings, but she's reluctant to admit her feelings are based on almost zero experience.

You wrote:

"No_Slappz are you saying that profiling doesn't exist because of sista gp's story, which is actually a case of discrimination and not profiling, or are you saying that because her husband reflects the same attitude given to black men by white people is racist and self-delusional?"

First, you have no idea whether the sista gp's paycheck story is accurate. As I said, unless she saw the paychecks of her co-workers, she does not know if they received raises that were higher or lower than hers. Moreover, maybe her boss disliked her. It happens. Life isn't fair. So what?

A difference in pay of $100 a year is too small to suggest anything but the likelihood that she was being given a subtle message to look for a new job.

You have no idea whether the message was driven by anti-black feelings of her boss or the possibility that she was the least competent member of her group.

The funny part of your post is your expression of your own well developed anti-white sentiments.

You say:

"...her husband reflects the same attitude given to black men by white people..."

Another mind reader. Another person able to know what's in the hearts and minds of whites by simply looking their way.

YOu said:

"Because if you are, I can provide you with a number of stories of when I was younger and hearing the sound of car locks lock as I came close to a white person in a car."

I live in the southwest corner of the Flatbush section of Brooklyn, NY. I am a white guy -- a little less than six feet tall, 180 pounds, casual dresser -- yet I've heard the locks on car doors click as I've walked by parked vehicles occupied by women. What of it? In my view, women are paranoid about attacks. Why? Because they happen.

Meanwhile, I always lock the doors on my car before I drive off. Why? Safety habit, like putting on my seatbelt. And it ensures my kids don't accidently open the back doors.

Here's a true story for you. A couple of DAYS ago there was a murder in my former Brooklyn neighborhood. The first murder in this neighborhood in at least 10 years. The Chinese woman who ran the Eden Dry Cleaners in Windsor Terrace Brooklyn was found murdered in her shop. The shop is in a residential section of the neighborhood, and the neighborhood is mostly white. Guess what?

A day later the killer was caught. He was black. He killed her by hitting her over the head with a bat or something similar. He took her car and was caught with it.

Do you have any stories of whites entering businesses in black neighborhoods and committing violent crimes? If I knew any stories like that I would acknowledge them.

Over the past few days there have been several shootings in Far Rockaway (Queens), and at least two were fatal. All the involved parties were black and the shootings were apparently drug related. But it looks like the two dead victims were hit by shots intended for others. The shooters missed and hit uninvolved, innocent bystanders.

In other words, it's obvious that the biggest threat to black lives are other blacks, especially when guns are involved.

Therefore, your concern with the "attitudes" of whites seems to be misplaced. Even if a white woman in a car locks the car doors, that's hardly comparable to the reality that physical assaults occur and women are the usual victims.

You said:

I can tell you of the times when I would be stopped by the police, searched and questioned whether I was on foot or driving and even told once that I was stopped on the NJ Turnpike because I looked Jamaican. I figured out later on "Jamaican" was a euphemism for drug runner.

How many times were you stopped?

What were the circumstances?

As for looking like a drug dealer, well, having seen many drug dealers in NY City, I can say that my attention would turn to someone who "looked" like a drug dealer.

If you want to fight to change the drug laws, I'm all for it. But decriminalizing drugs will have a downside.

By the way, I too have been stopped by cops on the grounds of "suspicion". I don't like it anymore than anyone else. I've been stopped by white and black cops. As annoyances go, this one is minor.

Curious said...

No_Slappz , Okay, wow, well on 2 fronts then.

In regards to sista gp’s story, it’s true I have no idea whether her tale is real or not and just some misconceived perception of injustice that she imagined. I do not argue that there was or was not a racial bias in her work place that would make her believe that she was discriminated against. I don’t even know whether sista gp is a charter member of the MOVE Organization or the Black Panther Movement. What I do know is that there would be no need to lie about experiences that a lot of people have already gone through and can relate to. What I do know is that if this is what sista gp believes and if this is her word, then she deserves all the respect that should be accorded to her. I, for one will do so.

As for me, well I think you are calling me a racist with that, “…your own well developed anti-white sentiments,” crack of yours. I think you’re wrong and that I don’t deserve that but maybe I should re-examine myself and my own beliefs. It is telling that I wrote,”… the same attitude given to black men by white people.” When in fact I should have said, “some white people,” and not tar an entire people with the same brush.

But putting that aside, what I spoke of was my own personal observation. It took me a while, maybe a couple years to come to realize that only, some, white people, male and female were the ones who hurriedly locked their car doors as I approached them or crossed the street at the lights. It took me a while to realize that only, some, white people, male or female would actually cross the street than walk pass me on the side-walk only to see them cross back when there was some distance between us. It took me a while to realize that I was seen as a possible threat to, some, people not because of what I had done but because of the way I looked. If that’s not what profiling is then I don’t know what is.

As for the circumstances for being stopped by the police on street, the circumstances were that I was walking down the street alone, minding my own business and the police officers have been both black and white. As for the circumstances for being stopped while driving, the circumstances were I was driving alone in a car minding my own business. Well except for the Turnpike incident where I was driving with an expired registration sticker, but did that warrant a search for drugs with backup and a dog. if you think so, then you must be one of those Giuliani boys.

And by the way, what does a drug dealer look like? I think back in those days I was doing the Ralph Lauren faggot boy preppy look. And if you think that there is just one look for drug dealers and you ascribe that to a certain people then that is profiling and if that is the only thing that the police have to go on, then they will spend useless time harassing the wrong people.

Where you got the decriminalization of drugs from, I don’t know so I won’t go into it, that’s your argument, not mine. I will however agree that there are more important things to worry about than the actions of, some, white people. I personally don’t sweat the small stuff, but failure to acknowledge it would be just as bad as condoning and that I won’t do, not even for, some, white people.

When I was transferred to my last high school, I had to go to a physics class that I couldn’t find. It was my 3rd day there I couldn’t remember where I had gone to the 1st day or even the teachers name. The vice-principle saw me in the hall looking at the information boards and he asked me what was going on. I told him and he asked me to describe what the teacher looked like. I hemmed and hawed and then he asked me if he was black or white. We both knew that there were no black teachers there, but he taught me right then and there to be observant and not be afraid of seeing differences.

I am no racist nor mind-reader, but I do know profiling, racial and otherwise does exist.If you want to believe that I am a racist or a mind-reader then good luck, God bless.

shine said...

@splappppz stick

"Group behaviors exist. We can examine patterns that are common to whites, blacks, asians and every ethnicity of interest."

Really? Interesting--can you please elucidate the inner workings of white behavior(laughing hysterically).

If you want to have a real conversation concerning race in America, drop me an email. There is no need to hide behind blog comments--especially when the original post has NOTHING to do with race. I promise, I won't inflict bodily harm upon you (smirk).

sista gp said...

no_slappz,
I have chosen not to answer your needless questions. They are needless for the reason that no matter the answers you will believe what you want. You are not open to others' thoughts or expressions. You unsuccessfully attempt to discredit every statement.

I do not have "anti-white feelings" and I will not elaborate the basis of that statement.

You do not know of my experiences and it is naive of you to speculate.

You have inferred that blacks attempt to be mind readers of whites, but your responses are as if you are the mind reader. You constantly take simple statements and develop your own interpretations as to their meaning.

You have also inferred that my personal experience is untrue, but you gave several stories about other people. I doubt that you were an eyewitness to those events. There is no reason why someone should believe yours over mine.

It is obvious that you will never understand the "Black Experience" no matter how many of your questions get answered. It is lived, not taught.

no_slappz said...

sista gp, your post was a series of contradictions.

You said:

"I have chosen not to answer your needless questions. They are needless for the reason that no matter the answers you will believe what you want."

First, in the context, you misuse "needless." Wrong word. Second, once again you base your position on mind-reading.

You claim YOU KNOW what I will believe. That's mind-reading.

If my opinions and views were as rigid and fixed as you have assumed, I would not bother to ask any questions. In your scenario, my questions would all be rhetorical and I would simply "know" the answers.

You attempted more mind-reading by claiming:

"You are not open to others' thoughts or expressions."

You then concluded:

"You unsuccessfully attempt to discredit every statement."

More mind reading. Do you know what other readers thought? It appears you believe you speak for others when, in fact, you can only speak for yourself.

As for the discrediting, well, since you can't read minds, you can't know what motivated actions like the raise that you believe was $100 a year less than the amount some of your co-workers received.

If you were to file a lawsuit over your complaint about unfair pay, your attorney would ask for some proof. All you have are your assertions, which are not proof of anything. Buy it seems you don't know this simple fact.

In your style, which is becoming repetitive, you said:

"I do not have "anti-white feelings" and I will not elaborate the basis of that statement."

You regularly state you will not answer questions or queries. But in a previous post you expressed some enjoyment over your husband's antics toward whites driving cars. If your pleasure does not express anti-white feelings, what does?

You went another step toward confusing your own statements with mine when you stated:

"You do not know of my experiences and it is naive of you to speculate."

I know that your stories are personal anecdotes and show zero insight into the motivations of the whites who populate your tales. I don't know why you got a slightly smaller raise that your co-workder. But I do know about the factors that decision-makers consider when they hand out raises. I also don't know if you are right about the amounts other people received. As I mentioned, unless you saw the adjusted paychecks, you don't know anything for sure.

I can tell you about lawsuits at places I've worked, and I can show you the legal filings in which plaintiffs detailed their claims. Facts matter. Opinion is not relevant in the final determination.

You seem to lack a sense of irony, a lack that is evident from the following:

"You have inferred that blacks attempt to be mind readers of whites, but your responses are as if you are the mind reader."

I inferred (actually, "implied" is the correct word here) nothing. I referenced YOUR statements to support my view because YOUR statements were valid ONLY if you could read minds. I did not conjure up a wacky idea.

You also showed that you do not examine your own statements by saying:

"You constantly take simple statements and develop your own interpretations as to their meaning."

On the contrary, you made statements and offered conclusions you could not reach unless you are able to read minds. In addition, you make a mistake when you claim that statements about paychecks and raises boil down to simple statements. Again, you have no idea what went through the head of the person who gave you a $900 raise. No idea. Yet, based on your statements, this person trimmed your raise by $100 a year due to his racist feelings.

As I said, I've worked in places where raises have varied over wide ranges. Yes, I am the guy who has asked others for proof of what they got. In fact, at one company, a public stockholder-owned company, I posted what I found on the company's Yahoo site. The impact changed the pay structure -- for the better.

You attempted more mind reading:

"You have also inferred that my personal experience is untrue, but you gave several stories about other people."

Again, the word you want is "implied". Next, I did not imply anything that you suggested. Your claim, again, depends on your ability to know what's in the mind of another person. But, again, you have no idea what anyone else is thinking.

Meanwhile, there is a lot of difference between shooting deaths and the thoughts occupying the mind of your boss. With a shooting, most of the relevant facts are visible. Dead body, bullet wound, and witnesses. In the Queens shooting cases, all the relevant and observable evidence is there. Dead bodies, bullet wounds and witnesses.

The thoughts of the shooters matter with respect to the criminal charges the defendants will face. But their thoughts do not change or lessen the fact that at least two people were senselessly killed by gunfire in Queens a few days ago.

Do you think the shooters will claim they shot innocent bystanders intentionally?

Meanwhile, that's a criminal issue, and criminal issues are not the same as civil issues, like pay discrimination.

You attmept to change the subject by saying:

"I doubt you were an eyewitness to those events. There is no reason why someone should believe yours over mine."

Here you are attempting to equate the FACT that there were two people killed by gunfire in Queens a few days ago with the THOUGHTS that went through the mind of the person who gave you a $900 raise. The subjects are miles apart.

There were two people shot to death in Queens a few days ago. That's a fact. They are dead, and they will remain dead. I said nothing about the THOUGHTS of the shooters. On the other hand, YOU have claimed that the amount of your raise was reduced due to the racist THOUGHTS of your boss.

Then, on to your last assertion of your mind-reading abilities:

"It is obvious that you will never understand the "Black Experience" no matter how many of your questions get answered. It is lived, not taught."

First, your statement is silly. But if you believe your statement is true, then it must also be true that YOU can never understand the "white experience" because the same conditions must apply -- it must be lived and can't be taught.

If your theory is true, why would blacks study history? Or science, or math, or economics. Those topics are exclusively white.

no_slappz said...

shine, you wrote:

"Really? Interesting--can you please elucidate the inner workings of white behavior(laughing hysterically)."

I don't get the joke. But I'll give a good shot to answering any questions.

You said:

"If you want to have a real conversation concerning race in America, drop me an email."

I will.

You said:

"There is no need to hide behind blog comments--especially when the original post has NOTHING to do with race."

Maybe you should re-read the original post. It absolutely does have a racial element.

You ended:

"I promise, I won't inflict bodily harm upon you (smirk)."

What's the point of the preceding statement? Real question. What's the point of it?

sista gp said...

no_slappz
Each word in my previous response were specifically chosen to prove a point. Your response was expected.

"You constantly take simple statements and develop your own interpretations as to their meaning."

I am done with this.

no_slappz said...

curious, you wrote:

"We both knew that there were no black teachers there, but he taught me right then and there to be observant and not be afraid of seeing differences."

Another mind-reader.

How do you know what he knew about your knowledge? Was there a sign over the front entrance stating that no black teachers worked in those hallowed halls?

In a high school big enough that new kids need directions to get around, what makes you certain the principal knew anything about what you knew as a new student?

As for getting stopped by cops, it sounds like you were stopped twice. Wow. Two, three, four times. Big deal. I've had my car searched for drugs. I've had by bags searched. I don't like it. But so what.

As for legalizing drugs, I'm not in favor of such a big step. But decriminalizing is a lesser matter. I do think the drug trade causes many more problems among blacks and hispanics than whites and asians. But jail isn't the solution.

Like drinking problems, drug problems are medical/psychological issues that respond to treatment. If treatment fails, then lives may be lost, but nothing has convinced me that America is better off treating drug issues as criminal problems.

As for the "look" of drug dealers, there is no doubt that some drug dealers, like members of the Hell's Angels Motorcycle Club, are easy to spot.

Spotting hookers is not tough either. But I did not say ALL dealers wear a uniform. You can walk in the East Village of Manhattan and someone will whisper "smoke" as you go by. I take that as a clue revealing the occupation of the whisperer.

In 1983 I was working in Bridgeport, CT. One day -- the middle of the afternoon -- I was driving through a black residential section of the city and suddenly about 10 black guys were running after my car as I drove away from a stoplight. Yes, I locked the doors. But, it occurred to me that car-jacking was not their goal. I knew it was something else.

They caught up with me at the next intersection and began offering me crack. Capitalism at work -- salesmen competing for a sale. As one of the few white guys to drive through the neighborhood, the sales guys figured I was there to buy drugs. Actually, at the time I was with the cable TV company and was in the neighborhood to see customers.

The cable company itself had two guys on the payroll who were supplementing their incomes by selling cocaine. I think they were the maintenance guys. They were black. There were occasional squabbles about drug deals between these two and the co-workers who were their customers, but the squabbles were usually pretty quiet. Not a secret, however.

shine said...

@ splapppz stick,

It's ok, sarcasm is not for the feeble-minded.

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